"Don’t touch me! We are in public!"
I can’t believe they did it again! The city police has warned couples to behave themselves in public on Valentine’s Day, February 14. They did this on a day when nine members of the Hindu Makkal Katchi were arrested for attempting to burn Valentine Day cards. The right wing organisation was claiming that the celebrations were against Tamil culture and the “Hindu way of life”.
It is clear that law and order is on a strain in the city ahead of the celebrations. Vandals from fringe fundamentalist Hindu organisations may go on rampage. In fact, if you are self-respecting fundamentalist, this is when you show your true colours. So it’s quite surprising to hear the police warning couples instead of reassuring them.
It is the second time in the recent past that the HMK is in the news. The group, which has taken the ominous task of moral policing Tamil Nadu, had recently found actress Shreya’s attire that she wore to the silver jubilee celebrations of Sivaji, to be offending for Tamils and Hindus. (The HMK split itself from the Hindu Munnani in the mid-90s says the Wikipedia stub on the organisation.)
I hate Valentine’s Day myself. I even hate birthdays, so don’t even ask me about Valentine’s Day. But I think if you are in your late teens and if you have a girlfriend or boyfriend who is sporty enough to accompany you for the evening, you are likely to have fun. And any day that provides an excuse must be welcomed with open arms.
The clothes we wear are not really Indian. Much of our ideology and philosophy has been shaped by the west. To appreciate Indian and Tamil culture is important, especially since it clearly under the onslaught of the forces of globalisation. To be a bigot and burn Valentine’s Day cards is uncool. When the Shiv Sena first started doing it a decade ago (to my knowledge), that generated a debate. We all learned how much money companies like Hallmark were making out of Valentine’s Day. But today, such protests seem pointless and extreme. I so wish HMK would stop attracting attention to itself.
What is the point of asking HMK to stop attracting attention to themself.. when the whole point of controversy(and their greatest motivation) is to attract the attention.. It is time we start ignoring these organizations who have started following Paris Hilton’s policy of any type of headline as good..
Valentines Day brings into focus the two Indias that coexist uneasily – the poor (and conservative ) and the rich ( powerful and ‘western’).
Valentines Day, is a bad influence on traditional India, since this has given license for nudism, exhibitionism, one-night-stands, extramarital affairs, pre marital sex, and what not! All matters of the body – the physical.
For the ‘affordable’, the race to reach ‘western standards’ is all consuming. ‘Love’ is hugely misunderstood emotion – a ‘hope to get something’ from their companion. ‘Something’ can be emotional, financial, physical and even social. ‘Love’ does not need to be ‘worshipped’ as it is alleged to be done with a ‘license’ on Valentines Day. The other day that females drink without inhibition, is New Years Eve – another ‘licensed’ day!
It is this same group that has increasing divorce rates, and hence is the hot breeding ground for extremist feminists such as Renuka Chowdhury and her two daughters.
With divorce rates reaching 40% in some Indian cities, physical ‘love’ as exemplified by Valentines Day is here to stay – both as the cause and the effect.
>>>With divorce rates reaching 40% in some Indian cities, physical ‘love’ as exemplified by Valentines Day is here to stay – both as the cause and the effect.
Mr. Parthasarathy, could you kindly elaborate on this statistic and the source?
>>>Valentines Day, is a bad influence on traditional India, since this has given license for nudism, exhibitionism, one-night-stands, extramarital affairs, pre marital sex, and what not! All matters of the body – the physical.
Another right wing dialogue, assailing the so-called western influence on Indian culture. We have our own culture, but to say only western culture talks about sex and physical matters is not right at all. Remember, Victorian England was prudish to an extreme, while we had scholarly and artistic works celebrating the physical for ages before that…Example: Kamasutra, Khajuraho, etc. Last time I checked, these were Indian works, without a trace of ‘western influence’.
>>>The other day that females drink without inhibition, is New Years Eve – another ‘licensed’ day!
Is there any law prohibiting females from drinking? How does this affect Indian culture anyway? Maybe it is okay for men to drink and not so for females…
Parthasarathy: No puns intended as such but i find your comments to be completely sexist and male chauvinist and of course tinged with a colorful topping of religious extremism, just like almond flavored topping on a cappuccino at coffee day. Allow me to explain myself as to why i accuse you of these things.
Your input goes "Valentines Day, is a bad influence on traditional India, since this has given license for nudism, exhibitionism, one-night-stands, extramarital affairs, pre marital sex, and what not! All matters of the body – the physical."
My take on it: What one does with ones body is ones own problem and will. It is agreed that its a problem if it enters another persons private space and comfort level however one-night stands, extramarital affairs and pre-marital sex are all not crimes. No law says that you must not have sex before marriage, you must not have sex out of marriage and you cannot have sex with the person of your choice.
Sex is ones own will and choice. If i like to have sex with someone and if that person is a consenting adult and agrees and expresses interest in having sex with me then i see no problem why the heck you need to be worried about it. If you dont want to have sex, fine with me. Please do what you like, don’t try and enforce your religious dogma on me and say "it’s physical" kind of rubbish.
Prove that god exists, summon god to appear before me right now and smite me. I bet my ass he wont because he does not exist. But thats not my problem, its yours to figure out where your god is and how to follow his female discriminating laws and rules are to be implemented.
Your comment "It is this same group that has increasing divorce rates, and hence is the hot breeding ground for extremist feminists"
My take on it: If i enter into a cell phone contract and i dont like the service, i will get rid of it. Simple, got it? Life is not a cell phone contract, i agree but logic works the same way. If i enter a contract of marriage and i don’t like what i got myself into or if im being given something different from what i was promised then its my right to get out of that abusive contract. It applies for the man and the woman, equally. Your demonizing of divorce only assures the fact as to how scared you are of the empowerment women have been provided in today’s society.
Your comment "With divorce rates reaching 40% in some Indian cities, physical ‘love’ as exemplified by Valentines Day is here to stay"
So what if divorce rates are 40%? Does that have an impact on your paycheck or does that make you weaker by a day? No! Love my dear friend also has a physical aspect to it, in fact it is the physical aspect that determines and influences most other aspects of love. This is scientifically tested and proved a theory, you should do some studying on it. Attraction is the key to reproduction in any animal, its no different in man. The most fertile female has to mate with the most strongest and able male to produce the best off spring. Thats now nature works with evolution.
Being human beings we have this aspect of culture and society that interferes and influences these primal instincts of ours, namely: Food, Sex and Survival, the basics of any life on earth.
While im not trying to simplify things to a gross extent and undermine the complexity and intensity of human emotions and practices, all of it is based on such simple principles of life that applies for all animals and plants, including the man.
As for you, you will have to put up with increasing divorce rates, women showing cleveage in public with attractive (or say in your words nudism) and comfortable dressing habits and yes we youngsters will not burden ourselves with someone else determining whom and when we need to have sex with. We will sleep around as we want to with consenting adults just like the westerners and there is nothing you can do th change it.
Atheists like me will fight to our last for gender equality and we will love our women to be liberal and ask any man who eats into her space and rights to buzz off. Last but not the least, the world is waking up to the problem of religious dogma. Hinduism is passive a problem and it will take some time for awareness to come that its no different from Christianity or Islam. Please welcome to the reality, "physical" is here to stay. I’m not saying this to badmouth your "spiritual" love with god (whom by the way has awesome women with 32D breasts sculpted all over his temple walls and of course scenes of anal and oral sex with crystal clear documentation which your children should definitely see and learn from) but if you believe in something, keep it to yourself. Please dont try and force it down everyones throat. This practice has never worked in the past and its not going to work anytime in the future.
Dilip,
" We will sleep around as we want to with consenting adults just like the westerners and there is nothing you can do th change it. "
Let me repeat my message : Valentines Day brings into focus the two Indias that coexist uneasily – the poor (and conservative ) and the rich ( powerful and ‘western’).
I do not see myself as part of any camp, but as a mere observer.
So therefore, there is no point in marking me out.
Shyam,
" Mr. Parthasarathy, could you kindly elaborate on this statistic and the source? "
Please google for " mumbai divorce rates ".
http://www.southasianconnection.com/blogs/586/40-Divorce-Rate-In-Mumbai-India.html
Mr Parthasarathy>>> Your views are by far ridiculous as can be. You are against valentines day, dont celebrate …its a free country. And women in india live a free life too.. We dont need people like you commenting on what it is we can do or not. Vices to be avoided are for each of us to choose. Not for you or anyone to dictate.
Btw whats with the Physical love being dirty???
Do go to indian temples ??? Well as far as it can go ancient indian values does exemplify love, worship it !!! or are you going to say that we must now start adorning all statues showing nudity with Clothes????
Stop preaching hindu form of male chauvinism …and all I can say is ur poor wife!!!!
Mr Parthasarathy, Be Realistic man. There is no difference between u and the HMK. If educated guys like you "observes" things with a preconceived prejudice and comments irresponsibly in blogs, it always leads to controversies.
My take is "If they want to get laid, its their choice. If they want to get into trouble with HMK or Moral police, its thier choice." Who cares?
Divya Iyer..
Commenting on his wife is uncalled for..BTW, the whole Hindu religion is male chauvinism ,poor girl.
Divya,
" Stop preaching hindu form of male chauvinism "
There is NOTHING about opposing Valentines Day to suggest that they belong to a GENDER or RELIGION. You give the impression that only ‘atheist – females’ celebrate it? The only generalisation to the opposition is that they belong to the ‘lower sections of society’ – the kind that is not represented here, cooks at home, looks after the kids and sees TV during free time.
" Btw whats with the Physical love being dirty??? "
It is dirty when it is glorified and exaggerated. Let me repeat my message : Valentines Day brings into focus the two Indias that coexist uneasily – the poor (and conservative ) and the rich ( powerful and ‘western’). You need not listen to their opinions if you dont want to, but you cannot deny their existence.
These are MERE OBSERVATIONS. So therefore, there is no point in marking me out.
I have nothing for OR against Valentines Days as such, but this threat to our way of moral living should be understood. With divorce rates reaching 40% in some ‘western’ Indian cities, physical ‘love’ as exemplified by Valentines Day is here to STAY – both as the CAUSE and the EFFECT – for GOOD or for BAD – whether you LIKE IT or NOT.
http://www.southasianconnection.com/blogs/586/40-Divorce-Rate-In-Mumbai-India.html
MaddytheRenegade
"Commenting on his wife is uncalled for.."
Hey, rest assured that I have a family, plus have also had wilder nights than most in my generation, and am atheist to boot! So much for my ‘essential qualifications’ to comment on Valentines Day! Thanks for your support, man!
The real opposition to the traditional Indian family, comes from grouchy divorced FEMINISTS like minister Renuka Chowdhury. They are sadly contributing to the breaking up of the Indian family system to avenge their own failed marriages.
http://www.498a.org
So according to Partha, we will have to destroy the ancient temples that depict sexual acts? After all we may become influenced by those sculptures and enjoy the pleasures of life.
If we stopped bothering with other people’s lives and lead our own life according then we will attain peace. Our duty/dharma is to mind our actions and not worry about the consequences of others actions. I am happily married and my marriage does not depend on the divorce rates anywhere in the world. I will not celebrate Val day with my husband but I fully support anyone who chooses to. I don’t wear revealing clothes but can appreciate an item number in any film ;-)
Thanks for the wonderful post. I share the same view with you. I don’t believe ppl think this day as the most scared day for lovers. Do they even know the stupid story behind this day? Companies like hallmark and bouquet shops have done good job advertising this day for their own monetary benefits. For ppl in true love, you don’t need any one particular day to appreciate the better half’s true love. This is for divya, I really pity your husband, if you want to express your love for your husband/lover, you don’t have to express it by giving a card or touching each other in public places. Behave yourself in the public places, police is watching.
Jagan: Police is watching? Who are you to police people on what you do? When you talk about hallmark and flower shops why is that you fail to talk about all those music cd’s and black towels sold to millions during karthigai masam when people go to sabari malai? Is that not commercialism? Don’t human beings benefit out of it? It increases purchasing ratio and boosts business, thats the end of it. What else do you think is the reason every religion has so much of these festivals that we need to celebrate? Otherwise no one will blow money without a reason. Its all capitalism and politics built into it. Don’t big mouth off without understanding the necessity and logic behind these things.
Parthasarathy: "the poor (and conservative ) and the rich ( powerful and ‘western’)." I disagree. I have poor friends and most of them are liberal and rich friends who quarantine their women during their periods. Conservative behavior is not necessarily due to lack of money. Its more of an upbringing. I grew up in a poor brahmin family, we had hardly 2 square meals a day at one point of time and i grew up in a very lowly poverty ridden neighborhood (perambur, sembiam) too. I’m today an atheist and a free thinker. So it all depends on the individual.
Valentines Day in the West is celebrated as a form of showing love to everyone. School Kids give cards to their classmates, teachers and so on. In India it has been made so cheap and depicted as being celebrated by lovers. This Cheap depiction is what people are opposing to and not the real essence of Valentine’s Day.
Valentines Day here in US or West , is not alone for boy friends and girls friends. It can be to any one. Here in US you can find cards for Dad, Mom , bro , sister , wife and even for your kid.
but the way Feb 14th has been picturized in india makes me feel sad . And I dont agree with HMK . If the boy and girl are ok and are making out in public, whatz the fuckin problem with the members of HMK . I would never seeing a 18 year old boy and girl kissing each other. Dont you think that you are trying to put your hands into their fundamental rights? ok, Answer this question, What will HMK do if a husband and wife make out in public ?
Valentines Day here in US or West , is not alone for boy friends and girls friends. It can be to any one. Here in US you can find cards for Dad, Mom , bro , sister , wife and even for your kid.
but the way Feb 14th has been picturized in india makes me feel sad . And I dont agree with HMK . If the boy and girl are ok and are making out in public, whatz the fuckin problem with the members of HMK . I would never get aggitated when seeing a 18 year old boy and girl kissing each other, Since we all crossed that age and we know how we were during that age.
Dont you think that you are trying to put your hands into their fundamental rights when you ask them not to touch each other in the road or kiss each other ? if you feel your kids will be spoiled, thats your problem .
ok, Answer this question, What will HMK do if a husband and wife start make out in public ??
Valentine’s day, even in the West, is looked at by people as just another day to break the monotony of their daily lives and people just use it as a day to buy gifts or declare their love and so on. The majority do not know or care about the origins or history behind it.
The same goes for India. It may be an import from the West, but so what? So long as people want to enjoy the day by doing something special for their loved ones, let them do it. Love is universal. People from all walks of life, as long as they want to do something on Valentine’s day, do it within their limits. It is therefore more of a binder than a segregator. I disagree with Parthasarathy that this day brings into focus the 2 Indias he speaks of. I would argue that our festivals like Deepavali brings out the 2 Indias into sharper focus with conspicuous consumption on the one hand and poverty on the other.
It is far better to err on the side of liberal values/liberalism than submit to the terror of fundamentalist organisations. We are privileged to live in a free society and long may it remain so.
Parthasarathy, I wish you would be more logical in your thoughts and arguments. I fail to understand what your actual point is. Do you have a different value for yourself and a different one for society? A different set of values for males and different for females? What is your argument against the politician you often refer to in your comments and what is your problem with feminists? Are you scared, as someone else has said, to accept it?
This is a result of the Indian mentality of not minding one’s own business. We have lived in a society which encourages interdependence and not individuality. So people have to follow the rules set by a majority, regardless of whether the set rules are right or wrong. These so-called guardians or Hindu/Indian culture have numerous illicit affairs which have certainly not been prescribed by Indian culture but when it comes to celebrating a harmless occassion, they are up in arms against an imaginary invasion of culture. True, meaningless celebrations like Valentine’s are commercial opportunities for many MNC’s, but it is upto the people who earn money to decide how to spend it. Why can’t they direct their energies towards abolition of animal sacrifice(kada vettrathu)and other primitive practices.
Dai what are you saying…………when people go to sabari malai? Is that not commercialism? If you can write about stereotyping Brahmins and for associations amongst the readers ith a thread even after you saying you are a atheist, these things will remain man. By the way don’t you ever give up trying to act like a hero in this blog after having been kicked out of her with a big slap on ur dirty ass. I also hear you are under therapy and have no job. I am sorry for you man…
Anand,
" I disagree with Parthasarathy that this day brings into focus the 2 Indias he speaks of."
LIKE IT or NOT, there are people in India who do NOT LIKE the concept of Valentines Day eating into the morality of Indian values. As I said, you may DISAGREE, but you cannot DENY their existence.
"Do you have a different value for yourself and a different one for society?"
I am neutral to this tamasha, but I would certainly like to point out to the Valentines Day celebrators the damage they do the values of the majority in India.
"A different set of values for males and different for females?"
There is NOTHING about those opposing Valentines Day to suggest that they belong to a GENDER or RELIGION. The only generalisation to the opposition is that they belong to the ‘lower sections of society’ – the kind that is not represented here, cooks at home, looks after the kids and sees TV during free time.
"Valentine’s day, even in the West, is looked at by people as just another day to break the monotony of their daily lives "
Understandable in the western context, where one-night-stands are both makers and breakers of marriage. Though it is difficult to convince many people in India, they are forced to accept it, mainly because they are powerless. And the sheer physical sex of Indian Valentines Day, blinds the young and sex passionate.
Guys and girls,
Lets look at this in another way : How many would want the Indian government to legalise nudism, exhibitionism, one-night-stands, extramarital affairs and pre marital sex? After all, this is what V Day stands for, to most Indians.
@Parthasarathy…enough said….. why would the great idea of ‘Indian government to legalise nudism, exhibitionism, one-night-stands, extramarital affairs and pre marital sex’ cross ur mind?
Are you really craving for all these things or what?
And by what authority are u claiming this on behalf of ‘most Indians’?
And stop clinging to few exceptions on the wrong extreme side and throwing out purely argumentative and fruitless accusations and generalize the whole scenario on the basis of that!
should i remind u that there are also few exceptions to life on the right extreme side and when people start throwing arguments at each other on the basis of exceptions ..no good can come out of that!
If u decide to be negative and a bitter human being …u r welcome….but not by painting all other fellow beings as useless bunch of craps and perverts….
It’s really a pity that a single human being comes out claiming what he thinks is always right and try to force that on all others…that’s what exactly everyone here is against…..not the ideas against celebrating V-day but how it is being done!
Parthasarathy , First of all understand one thing, V Day is all about love not love making or showing off in public. It has got nothing to do with nudisam or one-night-stand or anything . People aboue the age of 18 have every right in the world to choose their partners and have sex too . If on a V day , a girl is raped or some thing, then you have some thing to be worried abt . If the girl is also interested and the boy is also interested and they have sex on V day or any day whatz your / indian govt or HMK ‘s problem ?? DO NOT INTRUDE IN ANYONES PERSONAL FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS, and the lack of this attitude is the basic problem in india . why do you think that having sex is wrong . if a woman want to be a whore, no one can stop . If a 18 year old girl wants to have sex with 10 people you dont have any rights to stop her, Just you can advice her. Its like drinking, We know drinking is wrong, but we cannot stops the people who drink , since they will say, mind your own business. Its their right and there is no need that only V day culture is inducing such a thing. Even if india bans V Day , what I said aboue will happen and no one can stop . Parthasarathy, We have to undestand , we are no one to determine some ones’s life. its their own wish .
I am glad to see most of you disagree with Parthasarathy.
He likes having an opposing view and being rebellious. Sitting all alone in a room to read our responses in the blog, he derives orgasmic pleasure doing so.
Unfortunately, he gets his food slipped under the door in that room and has not changed his torn clothes for over a year. Hopefully, the nurse will do it today. I hope he doesnt go the Kunal way before the Doctor attends to him tomorrow.
Dear friends, lets all pray for Parthasarathy to have a quick recovery. Get well soon.
Ela, Madhu and Tamizhan,
First of all, I am glad that you have stopped this insane accusation of me being a male chauvinist pig. There is NOTHING about those opposing Valentines Day to suggest that they belong to a GENDER or RELIGION. AND I am not even opposing V Day ( as defined by ‘lovers day’) as such!
Second, V Day in India is definitely about legitimising illegitimate ( as defined by conservative India ) sex and sexual relations. If you do not agree, sample what some of the writers on this very blog have said :
‘ If the boy and girl are ok and are making out in public, whatz the fuckin problem with the members of HMK ‘ – Madhu
‘and yes we youngsters will not burden ourselves with someone else determining whom and when we need to have sex with. We will sleep around as we want to ‘ – Dilip
A lastly, I have nothing against love. But it has to be within the framework of the society in which we live. And in Indian law you could be in jail for years for pornography! And divorce was relatively unheard of in just the previous generation!
I dont have anything against V Day celebrators. Except that they have to also understand and be responsible to the damage they could do to conservative, or traditional culture, which they share with the rest. It is the difference between love and lust that must be understood – a very difficult thing to do indeed, in the fantasy of youth.
Parthasarathy:
Reading through your responses (here and in previous articles), it seems that the only stimuli from your brain is to your hand for self gratification.
If a kiss or a hug is a sexual act and the same act in public is an illegitimate act, we are all guilty of child sex.
PARTHASARATHY: STOP WATCHING SOFT PORN. THEY ARE FAKING IT. AND PLEASE TAKE YOUR HANDS OFF. YUCK.
There’s no need for a particular day for celebrating love. Ok, thats fine. But whats wrong if some others prefer having it? If you dont like the idea, just dont go for it, noone forces you to celebrate valentines day. Do they? its all about personal freedom and choice.
And about the way people celebrate it – its also their choice. We are living in a democratic republic, and we should respect the rights of others.
As we are Indians we have the rights to do things as we wish , so y u ppl bothering abt others , if they want to celebrate let them.If u don’t want to celebrate just keep quiet y simply criticizing other’s rights.People have their own on views n methods to celebrate , so we are none to stop them and lets respect others freedom to do what they like [:)]
"" If a kiss or a hug is a sexual act and the same act in public is an illegitimate act, we are all guilty of child sex. "
LOL
Any girl who wants to contact me on V Day, can do so. I am free this evening.
Happy Valentines Day!
How Land Prices go up… 1.In an attempt to give more loans and garner a substantial percentage as commisions loans are disboursed (Money Supply).
2. The appreciation rates of land have been amazing in the last 3-5 years as compared to anytime , making people go for the loans.
3. Brokers want a bigger commision, 1 percent of 3 lakhs is more than 1 percent of 25 lakhs, prompting them to jack the prices up north.
4. 85 percent of the poperty value can financed by banks. However by quoting the price of the property as more. For example if the property value is 10 lakhs and bank can give home loan of 8.5 lakhs 1.5 lakhs has to be paid by the individual. However if the individual say the property is 11.8 lakhs (85 percent of which is 10 lakhs is given by bank) and the individual actually pays the owner of the property 10 lakhs. Some minimal charges will be paid as extra for the extra paper work. his is a main reason for the prices to go up.
5. The NRI population comes back to INDIa one ine day and the number is on the raise especially now rather than ever ever before. The NRI want their kids to study here as they don’t want to loose them to western culture etc and inturn pollute our lands with the culture they picked up elsewhere by buying properties for whatever prices they are quoted without scrutiny.
6. Government does not implement the pay commision for years together and God know when it will. Government officials are the suferes.
7. Politicians are busy striking deals with the NRIS, FIinvestors and the likes, without caring for the localites.
Please add to this list folks. really like the crab story . hehehehe (with caste, religion, language, skin colouration, regional biases disparities amongst us its so true !
Any girl who wants to contact me on V Day, can do so. I am free this evening. parthaab at yahoo.com
Can’t we see that Parthasarathy is like HMK and ignore him?
"Can’t we see that Parthasarathy is like HMK and ignore him?"
Ignore me if you can! Smirk smirk!
Partha, you’re da man! Come, let’s bury Indian culture. It has way too much sex. Let’s destroy all the temples, let’s destroy Mahabharata, Ramayana, Srimad Bhagavata, etc., for depicting graphic sex and/or adultery. Let’s do away with gods with more than one wife. Let’s start with the lingam.
I am sorry, but I dont agree with one thing here at all. Womens ‘lib’ is one thing. But outright obliterating mens rights is totally another.
While the first is all very well and gels with the natural hysteria and female inferiority complex, the other is about a divorced Renuka victimising all males to avenge for her own divorce as well as her daughters. When a person who has not committed any crime, begins to fear punishment under the provisions of a law, it is not a law anymore – it is state sponsored terrorism.
It would be an unfortunate thing if feminism, and I dont think this is a tame issue, were to become a hard core political issue in the 21st century.
The Communal BJP seeks to do this too, probably scared of the corrupt congressis lusting for the female vote bank.
But to ignore feminism, with 40% divorce rates in Mumbai, and a most young women influenced by other scorned feminists, would be at society’s and one own, peril. This will affect a majority of Indian males soon.
Whatta debate ! Nandhu you have opened a pandoras box here. Wish the same happened offline in person. Very interesting take from all involved. Emotions running high. Thoroughly enjoyed the debate.
40% divorce rate! 40% divorce rate! Pathetic.